https://wtaq.com/2024/05/16/ntsb-releas ... irventure/


As I said after it happened ... That Rotarywing Forum bunch are, were, is, full of shit.

That just reinforces the perception of how 'dangerous' those thing are.... The pilots not the machines

I was just having a conversation with a United Pilot here the other day. He asked if I had heard about this incident?
I told him that within 5 min of hearing what happened me and all my gyro buddies figured the gyro was at fault...
He asked how I could know that and I told him,"cause they werent flying like the other aircraft in the pattern"
Lools like I was right...

The REAL CIRCUS- on this event is on RWF - the 65 PAGE - 1290 posts---and counting ,THREAD of "Much sound and FURY - SIGNIFYING NOTHING" --- circling - circling - the same topics & issues already - dead horse-beating /scab-picking as we were doing on page20-30!

I need a BIG TWO-BY-FOUR to SMACK some sense & civility into a couple of provocateur-A-holes that just keep the clown-shit-show going!

Like LIBTARDS... there IS NO REASONING with them!

My" walk-away - just walk-away & ignore" leash - just frayed ,frayed & broke!

Oh well - no flying for a couple of weeks until my new shed -door comes in !(- trapped by storm-damage!)

The path of the gyro would go unseen by the Rotorway after it gets 90 degrees to its left.
In a Rotorway you sit in a tub with the door frame blocking most your side view unless you peek under the frame.

The gyro was at the center line of the mast and rolled in the turn when it impacted the left rotor disk/path of the main rotors.
Gyro was 'punted' as the tail stabilizer and mast was cut off by the clockwise turning rotor. The gyro never made contact with the helicopter fuselage all the damage was to the main rotor blades of the Rotorway.

The 360 degree turn by the gyro caused all the issues. Belly up to traffic in a turn didn't help.

Non standard pattern work was A. Pilots choice of maneuver B. Helicopters view is limited flown many including the RW.

You want to see to the sides in an RW you crane your neck forward and look.
MD 500 you crouch down to peek under the door frame
R-22 has better views and the Bell 47 & Hiller H 23c has the best view of all

45+ years ago I was taught a go around in a pattern. Add power/pitch increase air speed and fly forward in the pattern.
Off sight go around add power/ pitch and aim for open sky. All this is a standard, Not rocket science.
Nothing different
Nothing Dumb
Nothing dangerous
Landed everywhere construction sites, between light poles in lots, on roofs, in fields, back yards under high voltage lines.
Had to go around for brown outs several times and Never ever did a 360 EVER for any go around...

The Japanese had a name for me "Helicopter Dancer" The only time I screwed around was the Field south of the South Side grass at Corona where I danced. Everywhere else it was standards...Even at Oshkosh & Sun & Fun.

Army OH 58 crew chief "Traffic 12 o'clock 3 miles" Pilot "I don't see it" repeated 3 times , Crew chief "Look behind the compass" Pilot "Got him thanks"

Photo mission stars & Stripe Pilot looking aft tracking convoy of trucks as the photographer shoots, Pilot feels the crew chief pull collective and aft cyclic before the pilot can bitch at the crew chief he sees the high tension line pass under the skids by 18 inches... I never had a problem getting stick time after that...

Bell 206 photo flight getting back to home 400 AGL Seal Beach , A Cessna passes under us I could see his face through the chin bubble he could see me... Too damn close ... ground clutter and Meadow Lark Air Port to our left.

Mr. Armstrong was circling at Coronas 45 to land when the runway reopened , Kelly stepped out for a smoke break and watched a 310 Cessna run through the 210 Armstrong was flying killed more then the both of them. We jumped into the 500 to lend assistance... Wreckage all over, park, streets a car dealership. yep. mid airs and IMC into rocks suck

I REALLY appreciate that (stealthy ID) guy "Andino" ...on RWF - he has some great common-sense posts - along with Mayfield and Boyette and Tony Thomas - about the Oshkosh mid-air!

I know when he first appeared - he irritated the hell outta me - but I have a LOT of respect for his POV's now!!!

Denis - who has access to videos of the events in dispute!
Posted THIS today ....AND the thread is NOW @ 75 pages - closing in on 1500 posts!


#1,458

After so many posts, it is clear that if you keep throwing out unsubstantiated claims long enough, that people start accepting them as facts.

Here is a clip of what I posted in #1337

https://youtu.be/B4qeSjPWo5s

I was at the briefing every morning, including the day of the accident.
I personally, do not recall any comments about 360s in the pattern. I will openly admit that I certainly could have missed that and it seems this may be the case, since others report that they did hear it "mentioned". Maybe I was signing the release form at the time and my focus was not 100% with the speaker. Don't know....
Your reply above seems to express that we were preached to and shouted at regarding this item.
If that was the case, I think I would have a better recollection no matter I was occupied with at the time.

bryancobb said:
FRI - Eric does a 360 in the pattern.
NO, HE DID NOT!
Eric's Machine did an aggressive 360 in the pattern on Friday.

Here is a video of that maneuver on Friday.
I have stitched the two clips together as 1 since the person taking the video paused when the machine was at the far end of the field (Understandably so).



The video is grainy at best, but I do know both people in the video, and anyone that does know Eric, would have no problem picking him out as the person in the BACK seat!

I reached out yesterday to the pilot and asked him to PLEASE step forward and make a brief statement acknowledging that he was the PIC in the video. I have not heard back yet.

Talking to Eric later on Friday, he was telling me that he was nauseated and almost threw up after that flight...
Why? BECAUSE HE DOES NOT FLY LIKE THAT!

Eric is a very reserved and cautious pilot! The people claiming otherwise are the ones that do not know Eric!

Eric made a poor judgement call on Saturday. That is it.

Why did he do it? Because the traffic ahead of him was getting tight and tried to create more spacing to make the situation SAFER!
Again, a poor decision, but still done with the best intentions!

Now, if the people on here that do not know what happened could just STFU... That would be great....
Last edited: Today at 8:13 AM

After so many posts, it is clear that if you keep throwing out unsubstantiated claims long enough, that people start accepting them as facts.

Here is a clip of what I posted in #1337

https://youtu.be/B4qeSjPWo5s

I was at the briefing every morning, including the day of the accident.
I personally, do not recall any comments about 360s in the pattern. I will openly admit that I certainly could have missed that and it seems this may be the case, since others report that they did hear it "mentioned". Maybe I was signing the release form at the time and my focus was not 100% with the speaker. Don't know....
Your reply above seems to express that we were preached to and shouted at regarding this item.
If that was the case, I think I would have a better recollection no matter I was occupied with at the time.

bryancobb said:
FRI - Eric does a 360 in the pattern.
NO, HE DID NOT!
Eric's Machine did an aggressive 360 in the pattern on Friday.

Here is a video of that maneuver on Friday.
I have stitched the two clips together as 1 since the person taking the video paused when the machine was at the far end of the field (Understandably so).



The video is grainy at best, but I do know both people in the video, and anyone that does know Eric, would have no problem picking him out as the person in the BACK seat!

I reached out yesterday to the pilot and asked him to PLEASE step forward and make a brief statement acknowledging that he was the PIC in the video. I have not heard back yet.

Talking to Eric later on Friday, he was telling me that he was nauseated and almost threw up after that flight...
Why? BECAUSE HE DOES NOT FLY LIKE THAT!

Eric is a very reserved and cautious pilot! The people claiming otherwise are the ones that do not know Eric!

Eric made a poor judgement call on Saturday. That is it.

Why did he do it? Because the traffic ahead of him was getting tight and tried to create more spacing to make the situation SAFER!
Again, a poor decision, but still done with the best intentions!

Now, if the people on here that do not know what happened could just STFU... That would be great....
Last edited: Today at 8:13 AM[/quote

Dealing with egos is a PITA
You will never change their minds, A 360 in any pattern is NOT normal and a go around is what 99% of aviators are tought,

Add power and go around is what everyone expects in a traffic pattern not a 360 ,

In our gyro-community ...360's ARE a great technique for keeping eyes on FW traffic - in the pattern - on an outside circuit and gyros on a "close-inside" pattern!

Visiting recently with a longtime gyro CFI who came from Helo's and also shown the video of Ron Menzies grandson first solo flight - doing a calm 360 on his downwind - to give a FW more time on final --- we ALL agree there IS an place for gyro 360's - at a place/altitude in the pattern when very slow-flight is not a good option.

When gyro pilots are accustomed to doing these at gyro events and it becomes a reflexive action - for a rapid need to space out .... it is what an anxious pilot will revert to in a stressful moment - the muscle-memory conditioned reflex - wins out over the conscious - " Damn - this is a prohibited move -per the pilot briefing for this event" !

Announce on the radio your maneuver and have awareness of others in the pattern - but gyro inside pattern is usually well separated from the mile-out FW pattern - a tight 360 is safe to do in small lateral corridor!

A maneuver that is NOT standard - Never in the 45+ years of commercial helicopter work, My two brothers who are both fixed wing & rotary wing certified - My 1st 8 years was working at a flight school (pilot/mechanic)
----> Never ever saw a 360 in the pattern.<-----
It was common sense not to do anything Dumb, Dangerous or Different in the ---->PATTERN.<----
"But I was taught that" makes off field gyro pilot dangerous... especially in the -----> PATTERN.<-----

In the infield or South Side grass knock yourself out. Air field Pattern altitude - approach and landing are a set standard.
S turns and a Go Around are the standard so NO one gets a nasty unexpected mid air collision .
See and avoid only work using the standards taught to the whole flying community -
360 out of the pattern as asked by ATC? You're not in the pattern & your actions are watched as requested for conflicting traffic. What happened at Oshkosh was 1, Dumb 2,Dangerous & 3,Different
Muscle memory it was NOT.
Helicopter has limited view to traffic 90 degrees either side,
Gyro had it's belly facing out in the turn and didn't see the helicopter (Same as the B-17 and Airacobra mid air)
A go around or S turn is the standard not a 360

Hilly is correct, this is precisely why Gyro pilots are looked at with disdain by the aviation community!

So, what has been the outcome?

What is the condition of the gyro pilot and the passenger? Are they ok?

Has the pilot owned up to doing the wrong thing or does he blame the heli pilot?

Gyro guy & pilot lived with injuries. Eric Says he doesn't remember...
Helicopter impacted from 80 ft and rolled over and burned, A reliable witness saw the helicopter guys didn't die on impact .

Oshkosh will relocate two place gyros off site from main event - Single pilot only machines at UL field only...
Fon Du Lac air field for rides?

I think the gyro guys survived because they (the machine) landed on the Mooney? It probably cushioned the impact.

The sad thing is that the mistake cost two innocent lives

Especially when a 360 was not even necessary ... I have been high on final plenty of times and cutting power and bringing up the nose ... then, slowly lowering the nose will get you descending fast, gathering inertia in the rotors and making for a short landing ...

I often wonder about the tandem gyro (Euro tubs) pilots being taught to fly these things like Cessnas ... how it is risking these sort of issues when gyros arent flown like gyros

I remember seeing a video where a gyro cfi was chastising his pupil for not landing fast enough with power and speed ... (a perfect landing for a Cessna 172) ... he kept telling the student to completely fly the gyro wrong ... and he only patted the student on the back once he finally landed the gyro at about 30 knots and had to get rid of all the speed. So wrong imo ... but that is how they do it supposedly)

I have never flown a tub ... only old skool open machines ... I am no expert, but I always landed with the engine idling in the typical plop and stop (normal) gyro landing.

As I have said before, the only time I landed at speed with power was when in the circuit with planks ... my turbo subaru machine was good for 90 kts, so, if I had fast planks for company, I would emulate them ... I could fly in at 70 kts ... get to the touchdown point and stay airborne at about 5' off ... then slowly reduce speed to the taxiway, if into the wind, stay airborne and turn into the taxi way ... then touch down, stop, then taxi on ... If turning downwind on to a taxiway, I would just drop on just before the taxiway and turn while taxiing (really carefully)

That way, any plane behind me just saw what another plank would do ... it looked (to them) like I had touched down, then taxied on to the taxiway and cleared the runway just like they are about to.

Go for a ride in a few helicopters unless it's a Hiller H23c or a Bell 47 the view is often limited

As for the Rotorway you sit recessed in a fiberglass tub with a door post blocking the view high right

The gyro in the 360 was belly up to the helicopter and 90 degree to the mast.

Nothing either of them expected in the pattern.

I fly crouched down with my head forward in a Rotorway - Same with a Hughes and its fat door posts
Notice the white Jet Exec , Can you see his eyes let alone his head?
In lift work with people on the ground or sitting in the pilots seat - Look for his eyes, Know his intentions